Is a backup a good idea? If so, which one?

[Brian-Barrett]

My nonprofit has a board of directors (of course) and part of their work recently is to create a Document Retention policy. They are wanting to know specifics about how long documents, emails, etc are retained by Google when they're deleted.

We're using a Workspace for Nonprofits account and do not currently pay extra for Vault.  Should we?

Do we even need additional backup as I'm sure Google themselves takes precautions against data loss?

Are there other backup providers that you recommend?

[MLWeiner]

I'm at a K-12 district and have been using Syscloud for a few years for additional backup and retention.  We find it easier to use than Vault, including a "self-service" option where users can recover their own documents/emails/etc.  It's not cheap, but I also have 8,000+ users.  It's one of those things where if you need it, you really need it, and it's invaluable.  Vault could work for you, we just opted for the additional feature set and protection the 3rd party system provided.

[Brian-Barrett]

Thanks!  I'll checkout Syscloud's pricing... we're a small nonprofit with 10-15 accounts that need backing up... could grow to 25-30 but will most likely always have a small-ish footprint.

[cryptochrome]

I see people here recommending on-site backups onto NAS devices such as Synology. While this can be a good options if all you care about is files stored on Google Drive, it will *not* help you to backup your Google Docs/Sheets files (unless you convert them to MS office formats). It also won't backup your Gmail in a way that could easily be restored. Just keep that in mind when making your decision.

I recommend a cloud-native backup solution that can deal with Google's data formats and makes 1:1 restorable copies of everything. 

[dagron29]

It's also worth considering what you're doing about having redundancy around your synology backup. What if the synology is destroyed? Do you have an offsite backup? What if you're site is hit with ransomware and all your synology backups are encrypted? Do you have an airgapped backup? Maybe none of that's important to you? Still worth considering though.

[Marcus1]

And what if the 3rd party vendor gets hacked and your backups+live data gets encrypted/deleted? I don't see much difference.

[Marcus1]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but very interested on this.

I think backing up to an on-prem NAS is actually a very good idea because:

To all these cloud-based backup apps (backupify, cloudally, etc.) you have to grant them domain-wide full Drive API scopes. It means in the event of a disaster/hack on their end (as small the chance of this happening is), you can loose not only your backups but your live data.

Can this strategy be called "disaster recovery"?

I might be missing something.

[icrew]

In my experience, we've seen far more NAS devices fail to get patched in a timely manner, and therefore get compromised than we've seen online SaaS solutions get compromised. Of course both do happen, but it's really easy for someone to buy a consumer-grade NAS, plug it in, and forget that it's a computer that needs to be maintained....

[Marcus1]

If you have a compromised NAS, you still have your live data intact. And the other way around. It would be too much of a coincidence that both get hacked at the same time.

If you rely on a 3rd party solution that has domain-wide full drive API control, it means you have a single point of failure.

Am I getting this right?

[dan_davenport]

We use vault, but we wanted  a true disaster backup of Drive (since we no longer offer a local file server). Many of the cloud hosted solutions are  pretty slick but we copied what some other local districts are doing and bought a Synology server.  Synology 8 Bay RackStation RS1221+

It has an app baked in called Active Backup for Google Workspace (using Google APIs) to back everything up ...which for our organization is about 6TB.  (around 2000 users).

This was still cheaper than going with a service like: https://cloud.google.com/architecture/partners/backing-up-g-suite-data-with-spinbackup

We haven't had to use it yet, and maybe never will, but it gives us peace of mind! For your size though maybe a paid subscription cloud service would still be better so there is less to manage. 

[Brian-Barrett]

That's awesome Dan... do you mind me asking what the cost of your Synology was (ballpark)?

We got a quote from Spanning (https://spanning.com/) which was pretty reasonable at ~$36/per user per license (includes a 25% discount for a 2yr contract) and an additional 10% off for 3yr contract.  I think I estimated it would be only around $540 annually for us at our current size if we went with 2 years, $730 annually for 3yrs.

Thanks again for the feedback!

[clambert]

Onsite backup will almost always be cheaper in the long run, but you will have some capex outlay.  Even a small 4-bay Synology NAS may take care of things for you depending on drive sizes used.  Ballpark, I would think you could fit it under $1000.  However, there is no additional cost for users.  The Synology option also retains backups of terminated users.  Most online solutions require pay-to-play approach.  Once you stop paying for a user, the data is gone (much like Vault)

[dan_davenport]

We bought a diskless unit on Amazon for $1,362.80.  We have a huge stack of 4TB drives, nothing special that we're using in a RAID 6 array and it gives us about 20TB of space with redundancy.  It will cost you another $800-$1000 in drives assuming you don't have any on hand. 

[gordon_may]

Brian

We use Spanning for around 1200 users. One thing to watch out for is that if you later change to a different solution (we have twice) you end up losing access to all previous backups, so may need to invest in an overlap for a while. I'm going to look at Synology based on what I've read above. Spanning is OK, but not overwhelming in terms of speed or UI.

[ThatMat]

Yea, no one should use Spanning.
They are known for predatory practices and horrible support. They are lacking a lot of modern tools and solutions too.

[JerryW]

Synology's solution only works for a small number of accounts.  For 1200 users, if you want an on-premise solution,  take a look at CubeBackup.   It supports backing up your data to on-premise storage, or to most cloud storage. 

[dagron29]

Vault is not a backup solution. Vault is used for eDiscovery. In other words, it's used to gather data related to potential litigation. For instance, say someone is emailing PII or sensetive data to someone is exfiltrating data via email, vault could be used to put those emails on a litigation hold and you could track those emails and that particular issue. Vault doesn't have a smooth or streamlined method of restoring data either. You basically have to export it, then import it again.

Backup solutions should definitely be in place to protect your data though. Some examples are malicious and accidental deletions, malicious addons being installed from Phishing attacks, or even someone falling for a phishing attack or getting malware on their computer. Any number of things could cause ransomware to encrypt data on Google, delete the data, corrupt it in some way, falsify the data, etc.

There's a ton of different services out there you can use to accomplish your goals though. Here are a few I'm aware of.

• Spanning (currently using, but would like to leave.)
• Backupify (so far I'd like to move here)
• Druva (Apparently fairly good, haven't looked to deep into this one.)

There are a ton more out there, I looked like 10 I think at one point, but it's been a few years.

Backupify had really good pricing in my opinion, and their features were great.

Spanning, I've not been impressed with. They've made a bunch of promises for things like RBAC, scripting changes, etc., but they've never come through with any of them in the past like 4 years I've been asking for them. They can't even give status updates. They just keep saying, yup we're working on it... They're also fairly expensive. Especially if you need to do backups across multiple cloud service providers like M365 and GSuite. Backupify was willing to give a much larger break for multiple providers. I'm also working at a non-profit for what it's worth.

[Brian-Barrett]

Didn't mean to insinuate that Vault would be a backup solution but rather something that we're not currently paying for and might need to take on.

Really appreciate your take on Spanning as that was one I was looking at.  For us it's not too expensive but I too get frustrated with companies that promise but don't deliver.

Will look into Backupify too... thanks!

[BRIANPCONNELLY]

Whether or not you need Google Vault is a question for your legal counsel.  I have used Backupify extensively and have had great success with both Vault and Backupify.  

Looking at Vault always compare the cost of Vault with the expense of litigation without Ediscovery.    

[CalebSpring]

Backupify from Datto (which we currently use) was the cheapest option I found out there if you are looking to keep things in the cloud, however, there hasn't been much development happening with that product in years. With Synology system it depends on what appliance you choose and how much storage you need. We have a smaller firm and all in we paid our IT vendor around $5,000 for two (for redundancy and failover) Synology 4 bay blade systems with 20 TB of data. This was a few years ago though so I am sure the price has gone up. 

[cryptochrome · Accepted solution]

I would say that backup is definitely recommended. Google is not backing up your data in a way that you could restore a lost file. A good backup solution will protect you from ransomware and other malware and you have full control over what can be restored and how. 

We have partnered with afi.ai and found their product to be excellent and affordable.

Stay clear from Spanning Backup, a product you will most likely stumble across during your research. We have had very bad experience with them since their company was bought up recently. 

[Brian-Barrett]

Definitely going to check out afi.ai, thanks!

[cryptochrome]

What I really like about Afi is that you can provide your own encryption keys, so all backed up data gets encrypted in a way that only you can decrypt it. This is a must have feature in regulated markets like GDPR etc. 

[paulo_costa]

@cryptochrome real nice that. I have a on-prem Synology Backup System (backing up 3 domains , 20 users), but it only backups offline version of the latest file (eg. a Google Spreadsheet is backed up as an .XLS file).

Does Afi backups of Google Drive files keeps them with versioning ?

[cryptochrome]

Yes, Afi backs up the native file formats (so there is no conversion to XLS!) and you have unlimited file version history (unless you set up retention rules). It works directly through Google's APIs, so everything is native. 

[vybihal]

Hello, sorry for resurrecting old post. I am currently evaluating backup solutions and I found out the above not to be true.

When recovered native file with afi.ai it as a matter of fact IS imported from MS native format. You can check that in document file history, where it clearly states "Imported .xlsx file - View original" and file change history is completely gone!

This is also the case with synology workspace backup, or cubebackup.

I have no idea how it was done in 2021, but now in 2024 I did not (yet?) encounter backup solution, that in fact backups native format and is able to recover it as such, with all metadata and file change history. Maybe the Drive API just simply does not allow it? I don't know, but posts about synology not being "native" seems kind of hypocritical since the "clodu based" backup solutions seem to work in the exact same way.

Am I wrong?

[CalebSpring]

Here is a video from the SOLVE Tank about spin.ai which is another backup choice.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM2tGOY2ACY

[Brian-Barrett]

Thanks... watching this now.  🙂

[gadams4]

We use Datto Backupify and it allows us to back up indefinitely or set a backup retention policy.  As a K-12 School District, we get Vault as part of our Workspace plan.  We have to use it often for "Right to Know" requests in Pennsylvania mostly for emails, but as others mentioned it's not meant to be used as a backup solution but rather an e-discovery product.

[stoltzfusm]

Vault is not intended to be a backup solution - it's purpose is information retention and e-discovery (a very different purpose than backup, for data or disaster recovery purposes).  We use Spanning to backup our Google data (we're a K-12 school and only backup data for faculty & staff, not students).  That has worked really well and serves our purpose for data recovery and disaster preparedness (including threats like ransomware).  There are others out there - Backupify is another very good option.

[colin_mccarthy]

Backing up your data is highly recommended. We've been doing it since 2014 and was able to recover files from a 3rd party backup during a rare Google outage so an important client presentation could happen. While you are unlikely to have the need for a backup when you do you'll be very happy.

I would advise against using Backupify. As others have said there has been zero development in the last few years with a revolving door of staff there. We all had high hopes when Datto bought them that development would improve but the product actually got worse with an unusable UI. My advise is use at your own risk.

My recommendation would be to speak to Druva, they are very responsive in development, support and within the application! They also came on SOLVETank and did a demo https://youtu.be/OmKTrxheGKA

[dagron29]

This is some good info. I thought Backupify was making some moves in contrast of spanning, but it sounds like they're both stagnant.

[dominik]

Google Vault _is_ included in the free nonprofit offer. 

And if your board of directors is interested in email and document archival this is where to look for. 

Additionally I am a fan of afi.ai for true backup. I am also a reseller for this though so take it with the correct caution 😅

[Brian-Barrett]

Hi Dominik,

Point of clarification, Vault is NOT included in Workspace for Nonprofits.  I double-checked with Google Support this morning.

Here's a help document that outlines for which types of accounts Vault is available and/or included:  https://support.google.com/vault/answer/2557687?&ref_topic=3209999#

[Martyn_Drake]

I also recommend afi.ai for backups.  Very quick, very easy to set up.  If you speak to them very nicely, they may be able to help out with any costs if you're a non-profit.

[dan_davenport]

It seems like if you have less than 1000 users you can use this: https://admin.google.com/ac/customertakeout

to export your data. Like Google Takeout, but for the whole organization?

[cryptochrome]

This is not a backup. A backup can be restored. Google Takeout can't. It's just a point in time snapshot of your data. You can't do anything with it, really. 

[JerryW]

For non-profit organizations, please check out CubeBackup.   It is very affordable and reliable.

[stole]

Is anyone using CubeBackup? How does it compare to, for example, Afi.ai(ease of use, speed, reliability etc.)? Seems like a much more affordable option, besides the fact that you need to have some kind of storage.

[cryptochrome]

Ask yourself this: You put all your data in the cloud (Google Workspace) - probably for a reason. Why would you then want to backup all that data onto on-premise storage? It will eat your bandwidth, you will have to procure and manage your own storage.. doesn't make much sense. If you consider the cost for bandwidth, storage procurement and storage management, you are probably not better off than with a cloud based backup solution such as Afi.